RT：大家好，歡迎來到Worlds Apart。中國有句老話“寧為太平犬，莫作離亂人”。我們很多人可能很快就會驗證這個命題，因為我們幾年前所了解的世界正在迅速瓦解。那取而代之的會是什么? 今天將要討論這個話題。我們邀請到了中國人民大學重陽金融研究院執行院長王文。王教授，很高興能與您對話，感謝您接受采訪。
RT：Hello, welcome to Worlds Apart.An old Chinese saying suggests that it's better to be a dog in times of tranquility than a human in times of change,a proposition that many of us may test out soon,as the world we knew just a few years ago rapidly disintegrates.What is likely to emerge in its place?We’ll discuss that,I'm now joined by Wang Wen, Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wen, it's great to talk to you, thank you very much for your time.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for having me now.
RT：Chinese scholars are not known for excessively dramatic assessments,but I know a lot of them, including yourself,warning about the danger of a major war,perhaps even a global war involving nuclear weapons.What made you reach such an ominous conclusion?
Wang wen：In my opinion, the conflict now is escalating.With the increase of military assistance from the United States and NATO to Ukraine,the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is no longer a regional war,but is escalating into Russia's military struggle against the whole western world,especially NATO.I believe in Russia's will of the war.If Western pressure continues to increase,Russia can only be forced to use nuclear weapons.This is what I am very worried about.I also hope to resume negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and end the conflict as soon as possible.Otherwise, I think mankind will face a more dangerous moment.
RT：Now, there’s been a lot of talk about so called Asia-Pacific pivot in the Biden’s administration and in the previous ones as well, They try to extricate themselves painfully and sometimes very clumsily, from the middle East, from Afghanistan,only to be embroiled in Europe.Do you think this conflict with Russia over Ukraine is deliberate or have they essentially stumbled into it?
Wang wen：In my opinion, Russia was forced to launch this special military operation.Because Ukraine has written its accession to NATO into its constitution.If Ukraine finally join NATO,it means that Russia's security interests are under unprecedented threat from the west.Russia's early start action is better than late start.This is a very important reason whymany Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.In the eyes of many Chinese, Russia has been threatened by the West for a long time and has to fight back. So, this is why many Chinese sympathize with and support Russia.
RT：And I know from your articles that many in China also sympathize very strongly with the people of Ukraine and their suffering. And I have to say that many Russians are too very, very greatly pained by that.But you once described Ukraine as having the body of a strong man and the fate of a servant girl,and gender insensitive or politically incorrect. It may sound to a westerner.I think it's hard to deny,given how poorly Ukraine has been able to benefit from both its strategic position and its natural resources.And I think to some extent it's very similar to Afghanistan.Because Afghanistan is centrally located within Eurasian continent. it has very rich resources, but all of that did it more harm than good.Whose fault is that both in the case of Ukraine and perhaps even in the case of Afghanistan?
Wang wen：When we study international relations theory, it is often said that "the tragedy of great powers".
In fact, there are a lot of tragedies in medium-sized countries or small-sized countries.For Ukraine, because the Ukraine has very good resources, that’s why I call Ukraine has a very strong body.But the problem is that if those countries, medium-sized or small-sized, cannot balance its relations with other big countries,it may become a dependency and victim of big countries.Ukraine's best strategic positioning should be to become a bridge between eastern and Western civilizations,but not a servant girl of the United States and NATO,nor a tool for the west to suppress the East or Russia.I think now Ukraine's positioning is very wrong,which makes it the biggest loser in this conflict.That’s why I’m very worried about Ukraine, because maybe in the future after the conflict, Ukraine may become the poorest and worst country in Europe.
RT：Now, you said before that you essentially believe that Russia was pushed into this military operation by NATO's continuing encroachment. Vladimir Putin, who authorized this operation.His last visit abroad was to China,and it was very interesting in my view, this visit. Because the Russian delegation flew in in the morning. They had a day full of meetings and they left in the evening. And there must have been something very, very important in those personal meetings to justify,you know, traveling such large distances for such a short period of time. Do you think the Chinese were informed of the Russian intentions to launch this operation?I know that there is no way of knowing it for sure. Perhaps only President Xi and President Putin know that. But what's your intuition on that?
Wang wen：Till now, we still very appreciate the President Putin's visit to Beijing at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympic.Because this is a very important event for China.
RT：Putin just celebrations, right? I mean there were some important talks behind the scenes as well.
Wang wen：To be honestly, I ask the question to a lot of China officials,and I need an answer whether that time President Putin tell or share the secret information to China side.But now I very confirmed that China does not know the information that Russia would launch this special action this time.Because in fact, you know, very obvious evidence is that until the day before the outbreak of the conflict, the Chinese foreign ministry still did not ask the Chinese Embassy in Ukraine to quit.This has proved that China does not know the truth.That's why I said some Chinese people complained about this.why didn’t you share the information?But on the other hand,we understand because we believe that Russia is an independent country and has the right to do what it thinks is right.
RT：Now despite this ambiguity on whether or not China was informed about Russia's intentions, I think we would agree that even before this military operation, the relationship between Russia and China was growing closer. Over the last couple of a month,I think it became even tighter.And while the Chinese side is still trying to project a neutral line, you know, projecting that neutral line in and of itself is a sign of independence. It's not siding explicitly with the American hegemon. Do you think that is intentional?
Wang wen：I think actually China will not follow the United States to sanction Russia.In fact, 80% of the world's countries and population have not followed the west to sanction Russia.The West was isolated by the world in these sanctions against Russia. In China's view, sanctions cannot solve the problem, but will only harm the interests of ordinary people. China has always opposed American hegemony, but we support the international order since World War II. In China's view, the largest country that has undermined the international order established since World War II is the United States. The United States continues to withdraw from relevant treaties, provoke wars and become a global troublemaker.
RT：Dr. Wang, for now, the fighting is still contained to Ukraine,and we all hope that it will stay that way.Although the ripple effects from this confrontation are already felt around the world. What could possibly make the hostilities spread further and turn this military operation from a local or regional one into a global outbreak of violence?
Wang wen：Because I don't know whether you know Last week President Xi put forward a very interesting new term "global security initiative"，because this initiative, I think it's very important.It called for the concept of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security.I think China's global security initiative is valuable in the context of realistic power politics.So nowadays we Chinese want to push the international system to adhere to the UN Charter, abandon the Cold War mentality,oppose unilateralism, and refrain from group politics and camp confrontation.So, I think this is China's wisdom and suggestions.
RT：Now you mentioned President Xi, and he was also talking about humanity being placed on one ship and having to face crushing waves together. He said that throwing anyone overboard would present a major problem for everybody.But I think it's a beautiful, very Chinese metaphor. But do you think the Americans who are clearly intent on sinking Russia, I mean, they're not hiding it. They want to push Russia underwater. Do you think the Americans are likely to listen to perceive that view from China?
Wang wen：Well, we hope American can listen to and hear.Because in the Chinese concept of security, human beings are on the same ship.Now, mankind is facing a very dangerous moment.As in my article, viruses, inflation, climate change, food shortages and wars are happening at the same time.Now human being is in a very dangerous moment.Now, what needs to be done is to unite mankind,not just focus on the interests of their own country.In the whole universe, the earth is small;In the earth, any country is also small.Now, some countries, especially the United States,are too arrogant and often want to lead the world,but are not good at uniting others.If this continues,it will be punished by history.
RT：Okay, well, Professor. Wang, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. Stay tuned.
RT：Welcome back to Worlds Apart with Wang Wen Executive Dean of Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies.Dr. Wang, you're a very serious scholar,but in one of your articles, speaking about this growing danger of a global war,you mentioned a curious or ominous numerical coincidence that the sum of every two digits of the starting dates of World War I (07/28/1914),World War II (09/01/1939) and the Russia-Ukraine conflict (02/24/2022) are the same,they all go down to number 5.And I know the traditional Chinese philosophy assigned a lot of significance to numerology,but I wonder if yourself see any meaning in this peculiar coincidence.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you for reading my articles.Because actually my undergraduate major is history.I like to look for lessons in history that can be used for reference in the future.The coincidence of this number makes us more alert to the danger of this war.If this continues, the Third World War is not impossible.Chinese tradition often teaches us that pursuing peace and preferring war will bring destruction.The United States is a country that prefers war,and Russia should also learn from this experience.Now I suggest the best way is still to stop the war as soon as possible.
RT：Now, I'm thinking there's another Chinese saying that suggests that the best war is the war not fought.and obviously the Chinese tried to navigate their relationship with the United States the best they can.You wrote yourself that for now, at least, you have been able to avoid a falling into a cold war trap.Do you think that there's still a danger when it comes to the United States in China? Or do you think the indirect conflict with Russia so far will keep Washington busy for a couple of years?
Wang wen：I'm very worried about it.because if we look at the history,This military action could have been avoided,if the NATO did not continue to push the eastward expansion, or if the United States didn’t provoke regional tensions,or if Ukraine didn’t try to join NATO.However, it is clear that history cannot be repeated.Now that the tragedy has happened,the best remedy is to stop the war as soon as possible,have more humanitarian actions,save the lives of civilians who should not die and reduce unnecessary losses.
RT：I’m very aware that the Chinese don’t like the comparison of the Ukrainian situation to that of Taiwan because of Beijing’s insistence on one China policy, but you know that the Biden administration and the other administrations, too have promised their support for Taipei.In view of how Ukraine was treated by the Americans security p-wise, The fact that they have essentially been know abandoned in the time of great need.Do you think those promises of American support are worth anything?
Wang wen：Yeah, in China, a lot of people, they think that nowthe United States is trying to provoke another war in Taiwan in the way of Ukraine.Some US security departments believe that in Europe, the United States uses Ukraine to balance Russia and weaken Russia and Europe. This is a very smart way.In Asia, they think, US can also balance Chinese mainland with Taiwan and weaken China's rise through war. This idea is dangerous and selfish. The United States will sacrifice the lives of Taiwanese people again, just as it sacrificed the lives of Ukrainians.Taiwan is regarded as the agent of the US to contain the rise of the Chinese mainland.This is another political tragedy.So, we have to consider about it.
RT：Speaking about Ukraine，it's well known that Ukraine is one of the world's leading exporters of agricultural goods.And as you wrote recently，more than fourteen countries are more than 25% depend on Ukrainian wheat imports.I'm sure the Russians are keenly aware of their own responsibility before the third countries，especially those who are dependent on the Ukrainian exports.But do you think, realistically it is now within Russia's ability to ensure that the spring sowing season begins as it should? And that it continues as it should, so that to minimize the burden on the rest of the world.Because in addition to this war,we also have many seasons of droughts, locust invasions and many other factors that are affecting the production of food.
Wang wen：So actually, in a lot of Chinese people's views that Russia's special military operations are very concerned about relevant humanitarian responsibilities rather than blindly military attacks.This is an important reason for Russia's slow military promotion.Russia’s military operations are very concerned about Ukrainian ordinary people.As well as you are talking about those spring sowing season elements.China has also put forward a six-points humanitarian initiative to protect ordinary people in Ukraine.Now, the whole world is worried that the war is superimposing with COVID-19,and a worse grain shortage will be possible.So, we have to consider about the other countries.
RT：Washington, for now at least, seems to believe that,in penalizing Russia, any means justify the goal. It already led to steep increases in commodity prices. It forced many companies to alter production change. Do you think that the world is likely to take it as this? You know, the mind is always right. Or do you think it may provoke some counterreaction from other countries to force the Americans to understand that? It's not okay to force others to carry the burden of their decisions. They may take whatever actions they do necessarily against the Russians without forcing other countries to do the same.
Wang wen：Actually, more and more people, not only in China, but also in a lot of countries,believe that the most selfish country is the United States.What the United States cares about most is how to defeat its opponents.As for the problem of civilian casualties in the target country or injury to a third country when defeating the opponent,America doesn't care.For example, in Iraq and Afghanistan,we all deeply feel the cruelty of the United States.So, as I said, sanctions will not solve any problems.
RT：Dr. Wang, I think you would agree that many countries, I mean I heard from lots of my guests from around the world.They all believe that the Americans have demonstrated selfish behavior. But up until recently, very few countries had any diplomatic or economic or even political force to resist that behavior. Do you think that momentum may be building to something more productive right now? For example, I know there are lots of talks about China and Saudi Arabia. You know, an old American ally switching to yuan-denominated trade in oil.Do you think such indirect moves cannot even challenge the American hegemony?It's not about challenging the American hegemony but making the world a more balanced and more secure,so to say, and not to depend on the will of one country.
Wang wen：I think there will be a very important financial change after this conflict.That is de dollarization.By excluding Russian banks from SWIFT, the United States actually regards the common wealth of human financial civilization as an external weapon,which is very unfair and incorrect.Every country will think that.In the past, we trusted the dollar,but now the United States uses the dollar as a weapon.Do we need to trust dollars again?Over the years, more and more countries have abandoned the dollar.Twenty years ago, the proportion of the US dollar as a reserve currency in the international monetary system was still 77%,but now it has dropped to 58%.It will be lower and lower in the future.In fact, the hegemony of the US and US dollar is coming to an end.
RT：As we see the rising prominence of China and other countries, including and the currencies as well. And one of the it's sort of philosophical questions，that one of the expressions we hear a lot and the international discourse is who is on the right side of history and who is on the wrong side of history,which I have to say is a very western. I would even say a very Christian concept, you know, dividing everything in starkly good or bad terms. As China continues its natural rise to prominence,do you think it will introduce a more complex understanding of what is good, what is bad? And what's the balance between various opposites?
Wang wen：I think if the War didn't break out in Europe,there might not be so much attention.In Africa, in a lot of developing countries, there are still many regional conflicts,but few western media reported.For example, in Afghanistan and Iraq,the United States still left many war legacies and wounds,but the western media did not report in time.At present, the American media still occupy the international voice,and the "Western centrism" is still the mainstream.That’s you mentioned discourse.We need to pursue greater global equality and international democratization.
RT：Well, Dr. Wang, we have to leave it here.Thank you very much for your insights today.
Wang wen：Thank you, thank you so much.
RT：And thank you for watching.Hope to see you again on the Worlds Apart.